Objective science and subjective belief and faith are asymmetrical, as I’m satisfied can be established from this debate. They are hard to synthesize as they can be classed as two different things, though part of our realm.
God, seen as an entity outside our realm, is an entirely different third thing altogether, different in nature from the first two. Maybe God has nothing to do with science.
Atheism often originates from unanswerable moral questions (the prolonged existence of suffering). I think atheism does require faith, because atheism requires one to actively deny God, something that cannot be done, as it requires proof or evidence of a negative. It originates from an unscientific moral point of view and does not come from a vacuum. Agnosticism, on the other hand, requires no faith or belief. Personally, I fail to see even the slightest beginnings of even the faintest evidence for the non-existence of a God. I can think of many (unscientific) moral arguments against the existence of a God though.
The fact that a child in Sunday school has no time for God says nothing. The childlike mind somehow having a pure, unblemished state, is simply not true. Babies start out as fundamentally egocentric and are not actively interested in the existence of their parents (they are literally blind to start out with). If a “pure” child would grow up without internalizing unscientific morals and habits (beliefs) from active outside influences, what would it become? Children need to be cultured, otherwise they become irritating pests.
Of course, bad outside influences can make them into hardened criminals by the same token. In this way the (imo) all pervasive desire for humanity to search out its “parent” and origins can be debased by organized religion, just as any virtue can be degenerated. So I’m not swayed by the argument that religion is such a significant cause evil: they are actually cultural and political differences.
A feral child may indeed deny the existence of a God, who knows? But it most probably will also deny the existence of its very own blood parents. Its “godlike” blood parents, if observing as if in an experiment from outside the feral’s “realm”, know better, and will consider the “scientific” paradigm (“informed” opinion) of the feral as of no consequence.
Panda wrote:
:”Why is progress possible with science it is because science is a constant building, experimenting and learning AND THEN absorbing the new proven theory which will be built on further;”
It depends on what you believe to be progress. It depends on what progress signifies in your subjective opinion. If it means progress for humanity, then what proof is there for that?
Science has “superseded” thousand of years of religion, and has inadvertently, within a relatively short time span, managed to become a threat to the very existence of the human race and its home. As a tool in the hands of malicious ones “playing God”, it could in theory intentionally be used to wipe out most life; Technology and science contributed lots to death and destruction during two, essentially non-religious, world wars.
Panda wrote:
:“cancer, MS, diabetes, auto immune disease, and other illnesses have already been recognised; someday no one will suffer from these sorts of illnesses”.
Science and technology have actually been the cause of many of these diseases, or has made them apparent by (sometimes artificially) prolonging life a couple of years. The supposed net benefits of medical science are controversial. Of course one can recognize the short term benefits for us as individuals; the jury is still out for the long-term overall benefits for humanity though. New medical-scientific discoveries in fact only raise even more agonizing ethical dilemmas and so lead to more injustice. Science means nothing without ethics. Where do we get the moral foundation to answer these questions and who has the power to decide their outcome? Ultimately you’ve got to die some day. Somehow people in secular, affluent, scientific societies still have a very hard time to truly accept the finiteness of life.
Trust in science is just as much a belief, and a very subjective one for that matter.
VG
Van Gogh
JoinedPosts by Van Gogh
-
115
Are you tired of the whole atheist/believer debate?
by nicolaou ini'm usually the first one to stir this particular pot but it get's so frustrating to keep coming up against the same old arguments.
the phrase "banging your head against a brick wall" springs to mind.
how many times have believers argued for a designer but refused to answer the obvious question of the designer's origin?.
-
-
Van Gogh
-
38
I got off easy because my father is an Elder
by Pwned ini was reading the story of james caputo on his site disfellowshipped.org when i came to the realization that i received favorable treatment because of who my father is.
i was 17 when i told my father that i didnt want to be a jw anymore because i just didnt really believe in it, i think i said something along the lines of i just don't "feel it" anyways he told me that since i was a minor i would have to keep going to the meetings and that i would have to tell the elders how i felt.
so a few days later 2 elders who had known me since i was 6 years old came over and talked to me, although they made it clear from the outset that it wasn't a jc.
-
-
Van Gogh
I think most elders will react depending on how their position, standing or privileges could or will be affected.
When an elder wields power over his fellow elders and has lots of clout with them, he can use his "discretion" in "loving kindness" in protecting others, including his offspring.
When an elder feels his position, standing or privileges could or will be threatened, he would probably want to avoid any appearance of conflicting interests, acting decisively to make a statement,
I've had mixed experiences from the JC's I was in.
In a single JC for "going all the way" about twenty years ago, I got off with a private reproof. Case closed. The JC was even held in my own home.
JW life can be a bewildering amalgam of positive and negative experiences.
VG -
-
-
Van Gogh
I never show the right side of my face...
-
-
-
Van Gogh
Am I one of the few to admit? At this stage about 2.
VG
-
27
My "Unexpected Lunch Date Surprise" --or, Blow me down!
by LDH inok, the homemade chicken noodle soup is cooking so i have about ten minutes to share something with you.. ****fake name/family relationships alert*** critical info has been changed to protect the innocent.
i called a business contact that i've gotten to know over the past year today.
i said, "rico, let's go to lunch.".
-
-
Van Gogh
"Him and all the other "Rico's" that we will never know about, because there are too many to count."
Lisa, that is a nice thought.
If only we could "know" more of these precious souls. Who knows, someone out there does know them after all and does give them credit...
"He still has some level of belief in God and the Truth, I told him I didn't but I didn't tell him why, too overwhelming for him."
Perhaps it could be a comforting thought that none of us are anywhere near to being enlightened on many aspects of our (our) life. I think that in some respects we all are in some kind of limbo and I think it was wise of you to respect the integrity of what he is able to live and work with. At least he is out and is doing well financially.
VG -
42
GB and their 'Hot Chicks'!
by Gill inhow many members of the governing body are married to women a lot younger than themselves, and how many are married to 'hot chicks'?
-
-
Van Gogh
PoppyR,
Exact same thing happened with CO here across the pond.
Is this what contributed to my long drawn-out in-org celibacy?
Wonder if my status within apostacy is likewise positively affected.
Any takers?
VG -
115
Are you tired of the whole atheist/believer debate?
by nicolaou ini'm usually the first one to stir this particular pot but it get's so frustrating to keep coming up against the same old arguments.
the phrase "banging your head against a brick wall" springs to mind.
how many times have believers argued for a designer but refused to answer the obvious question of the designer's origin?.
-
-
Van Gogh
For me, these debates - the same debate that engrosses me currently - certainly turn out to be tiresome, but personally I cannot afford to be tired or amused by them as yet.
To put it mildly, I found Narkissos to have cut down to the heart of the matter though; a valuable key insight that I will need to lock up in my mind and give serious thought to, as I cannot comprehend the many implications of it fully right now. Internalizing the gist of his post and fully reaching this "enlightened" state imho would circumvent much of my anguish on the subject caused by getting lost in much subjective detail that clouds many a debate on the issue.
Personally, I sense a great desire to "know" "God", but many of the arguments used by believers are cause for concern for me. Once JWism implodes, any conviction can implode... an invaluable lesson for me.
In a previous life, when younger as well, when I could afford to think more "arrogant", for me the debate was a non-issue. But stepping back from the matrix, finding myself in limbo in a vulnarable time in my life, I'm forced to confront an "existential loneliness" that is scary. How many of the viewpoints really stem from intellectual arrogance and/or fear?
VG -
128
Is there any hope of you coming back to Jehovah?
by LeftBehind inmy brother is a self proclaimed apostate.
i see now that there is a wide variety of posters here.
so to those that have left the witnesses what would it take to get you back?
-
-
Van Gogh
LeftBehind,
You started this thread on 1 December 2005.
You initiated what became a classic thread. Many cared a lot to answer extensively.
You finally answered a recent and belated posting by "tea" after five months:
:tea, I am out of that cult now. My brother and I are closer than ever.
So tell us please if you can: what happened?
VG -
25
My Secret to a Joy-Filled Life
by jgnat inhere is a question i received from an anonymous poster.
getting this pm made my day.
he asks a universal question, so i decided to answer the best i can in public.
-
-
Van Gogh
jgnat,
Thanks for sharing. Just ordered Flow on Amazon.
VG
-
41
Question about the Anointed
by Zico ini have just joined this site after having been visiting as a guest for a few months.
i am searching for answers so please be patient with me.
a friend of mine in the congregation has directed me to this site as he has been having doubts about the organization, though he said he never posts on it.
-
-
Van Gogh
Dear Lilian, Thanks for taking the time to share your personal insights in trying to answer my question. I sincerely hope your hope and conviction will turn out to be true for all of us; I, for one, would not mind there being some meaning and purpose to this life after all - for a God to make everything right. For all the evil that pervades JWism, I've seen too many sincere people within the org as well. I wish for their dreams to come true and for all of humanity and its religions to profit from them. But trust ultimately erodes and many questions remain unanswered; the bible is a bloody book as well, from the beginning to the end of Revelation. VG